I first came across Zoë Ward’s work on Instagram, where her blend of wit, criticism, and candor immediately stood out. She has a knack for poking at the contradictions in modern Ashtanga — the rigidity, the reverence for authorization, the fetishization of teachers — while still speaking from the perspective of someone who loves the practice deeply. Her art and writing are sharp, skeptical, and genuinely curious in a way that feels rare.

This conversation is about what happens after the honeymoon phase of a spiritual discipline — when devotion and discernment start to rub against each other, and you have to decide what still feels alive and what’s just habit. Zoë and I discuss hierarchy, humor, and harm; learning to trust yourself again after outsourcing authority; and what it means to continue practicing when you’ve seen both the beauty and the bullshit.

At its heart, it’s a conversation about relationship — to teachers, to tradition, and to the parts of ourselves that still get on the mat every morning, hoping to wake up a little more than the day before.

In this episode, we cover:

• Zoë’s early years in yoga and what drew her from Integral Yoga to Ashtanga.

• What it was really like to study in Mysore during the 2000s — and how the culture around “authorization” took shape.

• The fine line between discipline and self-punishment, and how love can be a more reliable motivator than rigor.

• Why the conflation of spiritual progress with physical ability misses the point.

• The role of humor and critique in a tradition that often takes itself too seriously.

• Hierarchy, harm, and how good intentions can still create unhealthy power dynamics.

• How Zoë’s perspective shifted after stepping away from teaching — and what brought her back.

• What it means to practice as a householder, where yoga serves life rather than replaces it.

• The tension between devotion and discernment — how to honor a lineage without surrendering your agency.

• Why trusting yourself might be the most advanced posture of all.

About Zoë:

Zoe Ward is a creative and longtime yoga practitioner based in central Virginia. She has studied yoga for more than twenty years, including a decade as a dedicated student of Sharath Jois, followed by another five years as a thoughtful skeptic and nuanced critic of the Ashtanga method through her writing and her Instagram account, @unrulyascetic.

Kate O’Donnell has been part of that journey for me. She’s a longtime practitioner of India’s sister sciences of yoga and ayurveda, and author of The Everyday Ayurveda Cook—a book that’s become a staple in our kitchen. (Her dosa recipe is a family favorite.) I practiced with Kate years ago in Boston while visiting my wife, and it was great to reconnect for this conversation.

Ayurveda can sound mystical from the outside, but Kate grounds it in the realities of everyday life: timing your meals with the sun, letting one meal digest before the next, sleeping before the second wind, and noticing how food and rhythm affect the mind. It’s a framework for paying attention—something our fast, busy lives rarely invite us to do.

This episode offers a simple way to think about health that sits comfortably alongside Western medicine without competing with it. It’s about steadiness, not optimization.

About Kate

Kate O’Donnell is a nationally certified Ayurvedic practitioner, author, and educator with more than twenty-five years immersed in India’s wisdom traditions. She is the founder of the Ayurvedic Living Institute, where she leads trainings, seasonal cleanses, and mentorship programs designed to make Ayurveda accessible for modern life.

A longtime student of Indian wisdom traditions, Kate has completed over a dozen extended trips to India to study yoga, Ayurveda, and Sanskrit philosophy. She’s the author of four books, including the acclaimed Everyday Ayurveda series, which helps readers bring ancient principles into the kitchen and daily rhythm.

Kate teaches internationally, hosts the Everyday Ayurveda with Kate podcast, and continues to explore how traditional systems of health can support balance, clarity, and joy in the modern world.

Check out more from Kate:

• Website: Heal with Kate

• Website: Ayurvedic Living Institute

• Books

  • Everyday Ayurveda for Women’s Health

  • The Everyday Ayurveda Cookbook: A Seasonal Guide to Eating & Living Well

  • Everyday Ayurveda Cooking for a Calm, Clear, Mind: 100 Sattvic Recipes

  • The Everyday Ayurveda Guide to Self-Care

• Everyday Ayurveda Podcast

  • Apple

  • Spotify

The day you teach the child the name of the bird, the child will never see that bird again. — Jiddu Krishnamurti

I’ve spent many years chasing “enlightenment” without always knowing what I meant by it. In this conversation with Marcus, I try to name what I actually care about (waking up + stabilizing in nondual awareness), where therapy fits, and why certain practices help or hurt depending on what you want from life. We get into the distinction between self-improvement and self-realization, how language shapes experience, and why glimpses of non-duality can be liberating and destabilizing at the same time. I reflect on chaos in my twenties, the early yoga rabbit hole, and how I built an identity around spiritual striving that was really just another form of ego-driven self-improvement.

We explore Dr. Pierce Salguero’s “threads of awakening” model, which opened me up to the importance of softening in therapy, the risks of attaching to any single map, and why practical aspects like sleep, exercise, and reduced caffeine intake can contribute more to the subjective experience of flourishing than new insights. There is some humor, a little irreverence, and a shared respect for living an examined life.

If you have ever wondered whether you want a better dream or to wake up from the dream, this one is for you.

We start with the current drama in the Ashtanga world around authorization and certification: Who gets to say you’re a “real” teacher? What happens when lineage meets money, grief, and Western expectations?

From there, Marcus introduces the Jiu-Jitsu world, where belts, lineage, and self-defense programs create a similar tension. At what point do symbols of legitimacy help, and when do they become empty?

Along the way, we talk about:

• The difference between doing something for approval vs. doing it because you love it

• Why certifications often only matter inside the bubble

• How ego shows up in practice — and how it changes when you let go of needing to prove yourself

• What it means to find joy, creativity, and presence in the things you practice every day

If you’re into yoga, martial arts, or just the deeper question of what makes practice “worth” doing, this conversation will resonate.

Marcus Shumate became a therapist after discovering classical philosophy and the value of contemplative practices. While therapy felt like a natural extension of those pursuits, he eventually recognized its limitations.

This realization led him to join Advaita Health as Director of Growth, where he works to build a system of care grounded in the classical concept of human flourishing.

He brings a non-dualistic practice and orientation to all his endeavors. Outside of work, Marcus enjoys training and coaching Jiu Jitsu, experimenting in the kitchen, and playing guitar—though he admits he’s far better at cooking than music.

Q: Why do certifications and belts matter so much in these traditions?

Marcus: They create symbolic authority inside the community. But outside of it, nobody cares. In Jiu-Jitsu, the only real test is what happens on the mat.

Q: Is Ashtanga any different?

Tripp: Not really. In theory it’s a spiritual practice, but progression is judged almost entirely by the shapes you can make. If gymnastics is the measure of enlightenment, something doesn’t add up.

Q: So why keep doing it?

Marcus: For me, because I enjoy it. I show up, I roll, I learn, I connect with people. That’s enough.

Tripp: Same with Ashtanga. It makes my life better, not because of certifications or authority, but because it grounds me and challenges me in ways I value.

In this conversation, we talk about:

• Why Zen—and not college—was the turning point in his life

• What it’s actually like to live in silence for years

• The conditioning that filters our experience (and how to see through it)

• Integrating insight into daily life and Ashtanga practice

• How to work with “struggle poses” like Kapotasana without ego

• Why glimpses of clarity matter more than chasing a breakthrough

Whether you practice yoga, meditation, or just want to live more intentionally, Rich offers a grounded, experience-based take on what it means to wake up and live fully.

Rich Ray Bio: Rich Ray is a KPJAYI Level II Authorized Ashtanga Teacher and the director of Ashtanga Yoga Portland, Maine. In 1998, he made his first trip to Mysore, India, to study with Pattabhi Jois, and he has made numerous trips to study with Sharath. At the same time, Rich began in-depth Zen Buddhist practice and lived as a silent monastic for four years under the tutelage of a Roshi. He has been teaching since 2004 and is committed to assisting all those who wish to explore and walk these ancient wisdom paths.

Where to find Rich:

• Web: Ashtanga Portland Maine

• Instagram: @richrayyoga

Upcoming In-Person Events: Bethel Farm Ashtanga & Ayurveda Weekend featuring Rich Ray and Kate O'Donnell, October 3-5, Hillsborough, NH. Link for more info.